“The operation to capture Maduro was a success. We can celebrate the bravery and skill of our troops while aggressively criticizing Trump for having no plan for what comes next and for entangling the U.S. in the expensive, time-consuming task of running Venezuela.”
Why must we continue to “celebrate the bravery and skill of our troops” when they were 1) conducting an operation that was illegal under both US and International laws and 2) they killed almost 100 innocent people in the process? I think we need to stop kissing up to our military when they are complicit in the crimes committed by this administration.
Because Americans aren’t so stupid as to blame the troops for things craven politicians decide, and smart enough to realize the troops performed bravely and well in the face of real danger?
Americans aren't stupid? I don't know about that. Look who is president. I can see both sides on this. But it seems harmless, really, for getting a message across.
Why continue to celebrate the skill and bravery of our troops? For starters, their skill and bravery should be celebrated, as long as it is differentiated from the self-serving stupidity of those who command them. Second, anyone who disparages the troops is hugely on the wrong side of the great part of public opinion. I can already see it.: " Why do you opponents of the invasion hate the troops? " im baffled that anyone smart enough to read Dan would suggest this. And I thought performative pacifism from Democrats had finally died out.
How about just " DEFUND THE MILITARY !" ? That will bring bring the folks around to seeing it our way.
Not sure you are worth arguing with, as you seem determined to somehow blame the troops.
Clearly you can't differentiate an illegal from a legal order. "Shoot that unarmed prisoner" is an illegal order. "Fly your helicopter on a mission" is not an illegal order. We don't leave it up to troops to decide whether the finer points of an operation are authorized or approved by Congress, or even if an operation needs Congressional approval. It would be hard to run an army that way.
Having spent some time being shot at in combat, I find your quotes around the word bravery a bit offensive. I don't know why, with so many civilian and high-ranking military in the chain of command, who actually designed and ordered the mission, you seem to be giving them the "hard pass" to focus on the troops. As for bravery, perhaps you could take a helicopter ride while under machine gun fire, and decide for yourself whether the word bravery deserves quotes around it.
I think we are arguing different points. First, I personally don’t think that the troops need to be referenced, for good or ill, anytime somebody chooses to criticize a specific military operation. Next, this “highly successful operation” resulted in the deaths of almost 100 people. I personally don’t place a higher value on US military lives than I do innocent civilians from another nation. From my perspective, 100 dead people in order to arrest 2 people on highly suspect charges does not equal a “highly successful mission”.
I get your point that a chain of command must be followed for a functioning military, but it doesn’t mean that everyone should be obligated to blow sunshine up their tails before making harsh analysis of the overall situation. What’s more, the folks (like you), who go into combat have chosen that life path for themselves. I certainly respect that, but I don’t respect it any more or less than someone who chooses to become a teacher or a scientist or an artist. That 80 year old Venezuelan grandmother who had her apartment blown up in Caracas during this operation made no active choice to be in combat. She just happened to be in the wrong place at the wrong time. Her life, from my perspective at least, is of no less value than any of the Delta Force troops who were involved in that operation. The US as a nation has put our military on a pedestal over the last 50 years or so and that fact has in no small part led us to the unhealthy nationalistic fervor that is currently plaguing our country . I would simply like to see us pump the brakes on this a bit.
I agree with your opinions in this comment pretty wholeheartedly. I have made most of them myself in the past. I have also expressed resentment at the military (or usually bozos like Lindsey Graham in their stead) claiming both the flag and the national anthem as their special property.
But when troops are caught in a situation where orders can’t be challenged as illegal because the illegality is at a policy level, I think it’s best to keep the troops out of the conversation.
From a practical political perspective, if one must comment, I think Dan’s formulation is the only survivable one.
Whatever you (wrongly IMHO ) think about the similarity between ICE and the ( unmasked ) military who face armed enemies, it's tactical idiocy to try promote it to the vast majority of Americans.
These service men and women have agency over their actions and imho it’s neither helpful nor appropriate to continually fawn over them before making any critical comments regarding the ILLEGAL mission they just completed that resulted in the deaths of almost 100 innocent people.
If this view doesn’t resonate with the majority of Americans, so be it. Many of these same Americans voted in the clown show that we are now living under in the Executive Branch too, so I strongly suspect my views aren’t very mainstream.
This is terrific advice Dan. I also think we need to actively (concisely!) re-tell the story of the post-9/11 wars. Since Friday, I have been SHOCKED by how many people in my life, who follow politics casually, only hazily remember the fact pattern of Iraq in 2002-2004: first willful Republican lies; then Democratic cowardice; then exuberant triumphalism (remember "mission accomplished"?); and eventually incompetence, malaise and the death and maiming of too many Americans (and Iraqis) with no appreciable improvement in American security, and an almost constant twenty-plus year US military entanglement. Democrats need to remember--and ensure!--that Trump's Venezuela adventure isn't judged by this past weekend--it's going to be judged over the months and years to come. And it's clear these clowns didn't even have an underpants-gnome-level plan for the day after.
Going for Trump’s throat, metaphorically of course, on Venezuela is not hard or complicated. So WTF is wrong with these moderate Dems? I can hear the words about the operation being a distraction coming out of Hakeem Jeffries’s mouth now. It’s so tone deaf that I don’t know whether to laugh or cry. As you outlined so well, the message should be simple-Trump is putting American soldier’s lives at risk to steal Venezuela’s oil and the oil companies are bribing him to do it. Also, and the wording here is paramount, Trump is not directing his attention to the concerns of the people who voted for him. Instead he is off on an illegal and ill-advised foreign entanglement with no plan for how to “run” Venezuela, as if that is even possible. Josh Shapiro is, as usual, spot on with his messaging. I can’t wait to see him flex his considerable political chops and win the 2028 nomination and the Presidency
Look at the PTSD suffered by the men and women that were sent to conquer Iraq and Afghanistan. Look at the suffering, the family violence and the suicides. Did you know that children were killed? How are these troops going to feel in the long run?
The #1 reason I voted for Obama over Clinton in the 2008 Democratic primary was her vote in support of the Iraq war. I have never quite forgiven her for that. It’s the lives of other people’s children sacrificed for political ambition.
Smart Democrats should learn how to play the long game.
It used to be that Democrats protested our forever-war posture of the 70s and 80s by arguing that these wars were really about oil, while American leaders piously insisted they were about democracy.
Now we have a president who openly says it’s about the oil—and seems indignant and offended by the suggestion that democracy has anything to do with it.
We aggrandize the govt employees who are violent. Military and LE. But those who teach our kids or make sure we have good health care in old age etc we rob them blind and treat them like shit. Says all you need to know about this nation. Maxing how quickly we have become a shithole country
As voters we should which Dems are speaking to Axios and Politico with this braindead analysis , primary them, and fire the consultants advising them. It isn't a centrist or progressive issue, it's that a big part of the party, including leadership, doesn't understand the moment we are in.
We can't continue to be an opposition party that is afraid of its own shadow and is guided by listening to polling, which stands for nothing and delivers less.
I would bet the same "anonymous front line Dems" would be against talking about climate change, and are probably the same people who were fine means testing basic aid to families or are unwilling to tax the wealthy at 1980s levels. These people have helped lead us to this moment and we shouldn't let them continue to run this party and country into the ground with their fearful and failed strategies.
Yes our military performed brilliantly. But it shouldn't have had to. The simple argument I think the Democrats should make is, we don't have any money to help Americans with rising costs for healthcare, all forms of insurance, housing, groceries, utilities, but we have billions to rebuild Venezuela? Trump doesn't want to help Americans and never has.
As mentioned, the overall dem response to the illegal invasion & abduction isn’t all that good.
“Centrist” democrats and many strategists tend to default to equivocation until some poll tested messaging is available and they will likely prevent any kind of rapid response that could actually help shape public opinion. It’s pathetic. And infuriating.
To spineless Dem elected officials praising Trump’s efforts: we have proven for a hundred years that our regime change efforts result in a quagmire of troop deaths, civilian deaths, incredible cost and our own political domestic turmoil.
Take Obama’s example: oppose a stupid, unnecessary war early. The stated goal of this war is greed. Ignore Rubio’s sermonizing attempts to paint a layer of concern for human rights snd democracy over this mess—not even that South Florida gusano believes that. He’s driven by family grievance.
These are the lessons from vietnam, Iraq, Haiti and elswhere:
Legitimacy can’t be imported
Institutions can’t be improvised under fire
Local factions exploit power vacuums
The U.S. military is optimized for winning wars, not remaking and governing societies
We can speak strongly without legitimizing those who think all military violence is patriotism.
We can compliment the military without ignoring that the attack was illegal.
We can say it’s illegal without sounding like the teacher in the Charlie Brown cartoons.
And we can make Shapiro’s point without inviting what-about-ism on Ukraine.
Try this:
This attack has nothing to do with American security, American interests, or American values. It will not restore health insurance, cap energy costs, or make your groceries any cheaper. And it certainly has nothing to do with democracy.
This is about one thing only: stealing another country’s oil to make multinational oil corporations even richer.
It is unforgivable to put the military in harm’s way, to squander their courage and skill, and to sully their reputation by involving them in theft.
As the chaos in Venezuela grows and the regime beats the drums of war in other places and threatens to steal from other nations, remember that none of this is about you. It is all about the wealthy men who believe they can take what they want when they want it.
And remember too that none of the feet in those boots on the ground belong to Don Jr, Eric, Ivanka, or Barron Trump.
I found your message very helpful in separating our political wisdom from my own inclinations and emotions.
Just a night thought, I am not the person to think the politics through: Why does Maduro get such bad press and MBS such (relatively) good press? MBS has probably killed and imprisoned more people over the last decade. His Wahabi cadres are more intrusive than the Chavista cadres. He exports war aggressively. He does not even pretend to hold elections. But Dems say very little. I saw where he beheaded a young journalist last summer for some critical posts. But this is unknown even to Dems who follow news closely.
I share your puzzlement. We (this country) has for years picked out the weakest, brownest villain to vent our wrath. We don't pick on Ji or Putin because they have nuclear weapons. But we'll handily invade a Venezuela, Afghanistan, Libya or Iraq. We avoid fights with other industrialized, somewhat wealthy countries.
While we have to respond to serious aggression, could one of these MAGA crackbrains explain just how Venezuela, Cuba, or Columbia are a serious threat to the richest, wealthiest, most armed country in the world? For all our superior feelings to our European allies, they do seem to be able to go for years without militarily confronting some small poor country and killing a bunch of civilians. No wonder the poorer countries hate us.
Dan, my biggest concerns over Trump's action in Venezuela, aside from the sheer amorality of it, are the dangers it creates for us and the rest of the world. Aside from the fact that being an international bully always opens us to more terror attacks, if Trump can go against the UN Charter, what's to stop Putin, et al, from continuing to do likewise, and what deleterious ripple effects do more "sphere of influence" actions by other huge state actors have on us militarily and economically? And wildly, because Trump has just proven he's willing to illegally and unilaterally use force to depose a sovereign leader and attempt to take control of a state, his threats against Greenland and even Canada suddenly have sharper edges. Maybe the idea that our allies would move against us seems far-fetched, but honestly, Trump could cross a line that shakes the whole system awake. Would our allies sanction us? Strike us? This is an alarming Brave New Trumpian World. Anyway, messaging starts to feel silly in this light, but what IS the effective messaging for these concerns?
Good advice, except not tying it to Epstein .. Most Americans don't care about it? Really? Isnt the fact that Trump and his billionaire pals sexually abused hundreds of young girls , and is getting away with it, the one issue that unites most of us with many of the MAGAS? Isn't "TRUMP INVADES VENZUELA FOR OIL AND EPSTEIN DISTRACTION" a narrative that not only resonates across the political spectrum, ( especially with the more paranoid and conspiracy-minded) but has the benefit of certainly being true? Didn't MTG herself make the "OIL-BILLIONAIRE CRONIES-EPSTEIN " connection ?
“The operation to capture Maduro was a success. We can celebrate the bravery and skill of our troops while aggressively criticizing Trump for having no plan for what comes next and for entangling the U.S. in the expensive, time-consuming task of running Venezuela.”
Why must we continue to “celebrate the bravery and skill of our troops” when they were 1) conducting an operation that was illegal under both US and International laws and 2) they killed almost 100 innocent people in the process? I think we need to stop kissing up to our military when they are complicit in the crimes committed by this administration.
Because Americans aren’t so stupid as to blame the troops for things craven politicians decide, and smart enough to realize the troops performed bravely and well in the face of real danger?
Americans aren't stupid? I don't know about that. Look who is president. I can see both sides on this. But it seems harmless, really, for getting a message across.
I am sorry you deem yourself stupid.
I deem half of Americans stupid - yes. What's your problem? You're a lot like trump - mean . and I was talking the wording of the message-
I agree 100% and I almost canceled my subscription in protest. I am so glad that another reader at least shares my feelings.
Why continue to celebrate the skill and bravery of our troops? For starters, their skill and bravery should be celebrated, as long as it is differentiated from the self-serving stupidity of those who command them. Second, anyone who disparages the troops is hugely on the wrong side of the great part of public opinion. I can already see it.: " Why do you opponents of the invasion hate the troops? " im baffled that anyone smart enough to read Dan would suggest this. And I thought performative pacifism from Democrats had finally died out.
How about just " DEFUND THE MILITARY !" ? That will bring bring the folks around to seeing it our way.
They “bravely” followed illegal orders and got 100 innocent people killed in the process. Hard pass on lauding that sort of stuff.
“Those DHS leaders sure are evil but those ICE agents sure did execute their orders bravely to deport those families. Thank you for your service!”
Same energy, different uniforms.
Not sure you are worth arguing with, as you seem determined to somehow blame the troops.
Clearly you can't differentiate an illegal from a legal order. "Shoot that unarmed prisoner" is an illegal order. "Fly your helicopter on a mission" is not an illegal order. We don't leave it up to troops to decide whether the finer points of an operation are authorized or approved by Congress, or even if an operation needs Congressional approval. It would be hard to run an army that way.
Having spent some time being shot at in combat, I find your quotes around the word bravery a bit offensive. I don't know why, with so many civilian and high-ranking military in the chain of command, who actually designed and ordered the mission, you seem to be giving them the "hard pass" to focus on the troops. As for bravery, perhaps you could take a helicopter ride while under machine gun fire, and decide for yourself whether the word bravery deserves quotes around it.
I think we are arguing different points. First, I personally don’t think that the troops need to be referenced, for good or ill, anytime somebody chooses to criticize a specific military operation. Next, this “highly successful operation” resulted in the deaths of almost 100 people. I personally don’t place a higher value on US military lives than I do innocent civilians from another nation. From my perspective, 100 dead people in order to arrest 2 people on highly suspect charges does not equal a “highly successful mission”.
I get your point that a chain of command must be followed for a functioning military, but it doesn’t mean that everyone should be obligated to blow sunshine up their tails before making harsh analysis of the overall situation. What’s more, the folks (like you), who go into combat have chosen that life path for themselves. I certainly respect that, but I don’t respect it any more or less than someone who chooses to become a teacher or a scientist or an artist. That 80 year old Venezuelan grandmother who had her apartment blown up in Caracas during this operation made no active choice to be in combat. She just happened to be in the wrong place at the wrong time. Her life, from my perspective at least, is of no less value than any of the Delta Force troops who were involved in that operation. The US as a nation has put our military on a pedestal over the last 50 years or so and that fact has in no small part led us to the unhealthy nationalistic fervor that is currently plaguing our country . I would simply like to see us pump the brakes on this a bit.
I agree with your opinions in this comment pretty wholeheartedly. I have made most of them myself in the past. I have also expressed resentment at the military (or usually bozos like Lindsey Graham in their stead) claiming both the flag and the national anthem as their special property.
But when troops are caught in a situation where orders can’t be challenged as illegal because the illegality is at a policy level, I think it’s best to keep the troops out of the conversation.
From a practical political perspective, if one must comment, I think Dan’s formulation is the only survivable one.
Whatever you (wrongly IMHO ) think about the similarity between ICE and the ( unmasked ) military who face armed enemies, it's tactical idiocy to try promote it to the vast majority of Americans.
These service men and women have agency over their actions and imho it’s neither helpful nor appropriate to continually fawn over them before making any critical comments regarding the ILLEGAL mission they just completed that resulted in the deaths of almost 100 innocent people.
If this view doesn’t resonate with the majority of Americans, so be it. Many of these same Americans voted in the clown show that we are now living under in the Executive Branch too, so I strongly suspect my views aren’t very mainstream.
Couldn't agree with you more.
Why don’t we remove Schumer and make Kelly senate minority leader and have him message this shit every day on tv. He needs to run for president
Absolutely must happen
This is terrific advice Dan. I also think we need to actively (concisely!) re-tell the story of the post-9/11 wars. Since Friday, I have been SHOCKED by how many people in my life, who follow politics casually, only hazily remember the fact pattern of Iraq in 2002-2004: first willful Republican lies; then Democratic cowardice; then exuberant triumphalism (remember "mission accomplished"?); and eventually incompetence, malaise and the death and maiming of too many Americans (and Iraqis) with no appreciable improvement in American security, and an almost constant twenty-plus year US military entanglement. Democrats need to remember--and ensure!--that Trump's Venezuela adventure isn't judged by this past weekend--it's going to be judged over the months and years to come. And it's clear these clowns didn't even have an underpants-gnome-level plan for the day after.
Going for Trump’s throat, metaphorically of course, on Venezuela is not hard or complicated. So WTF is wrong with these moderate Dems? I can hear the words about the operation being a distraction coming out of Hakeem Jeffries’s mouth now. It’s so tone deaf that I don’t know whether to laugh or cry. As you outlined so well, the message should be simple-Trump is putting American soldier’s lives at risk to steal Venezuela’s oil and the oil companies are bribing him to do it. Also, and the wording here is paramount, Trump is not directing his attention to the concerns of the people who voted for him. Instead he is off on an illegal and ill-advised foreign entanglement with no plan for how to “run” Venezuela, as if that is even possible. Josh Shapiro is, as usual, spot on with his messaging. I can’t wait to see him flex his considerable political chops and win the 2028 nomination and the Presidency
Look at the PTSD suffered by the men and women that were sent to conquer Iraq and Afghanistan. Look at the suffering, the family violence and the suicides. Did you know that children were killed? How are these troops going to feel in the long run?
Wholeheartedly agree!
The #1 reason I voted for Obama over Clinton in the 2008 Democratic primary was her vote in support of the Iraq war. I have never quite forgiven her for that. It’s the lives of other people’s children sacrificed for political ambition.
Smart Democrats should learn how to play the long game.
It used to be that Democrats protested our forever-war posture of the 70s and 80s by arguing that these wars were really about oil, while American leaders piously insisted they were about democracy.
Now we have a president who openly says it’s about the oil—and seems indignant and offended by the suggestion that democracy has anything to do with it.
We aggrandize the govt employees who are violent. Military and LE. But those who teach our kids or make sure we have good health care in old age etc we rob them blind and treat them like shit. Says all you need to know about this nation. Maxing how quickly we have become a shithole country
As voters we should which Dems are speaking to Axios and Politico with this braindead analysis , primary them, and fire the consultants advising them. It isn't a centrist or progressive issue, it's that a big part of the party, including leadership, doesn't understand the moment we are in.
We can't continue to be an opposition party that is afraid of its own shadow and is guided by listening to polling, which stands for nothing and delivers less.
I would bet the same "anonymous front line Dems" would be against talking about climate change, and are probably the same people who were fine means testing basic aid to families or are unwilling to tax the wealthy at 1980s levels. These people have helped lead us to this moment and we shouldn't let them continue to run this party and country into the ground with their fearful and failed strategies.
Yes our military performed brilliantly. But it shouldn't have had to. The simple argument I think the Democrats should make is, we don't have any money to help Americans with rising costs for healthcare, all forms of insurance, housing, groceries, utilities, but we have billions to rebuild Venezuela? Trump doesn't want to help Americans and never has.
This was exactly what I commented in the last message box post. But no one here seemed to agree. 🤷
As mentioned, the overall dem response to the illegal invasion & abduction isn’t all that good.
“Centrist” democrats and many strategists tend to default to equivocation until some poll tested messaging is available and they will likely prevent any kind of rapid response that could actually help shape public opinion. It’s pathetic. And infuriating.
To spineless Dem elected officials praising Trump’s efforts: we have proven for a hundred years that our regime change efforts result in a quagmire of troop deaths, civilian deaths, incredible cost and our own political domestic turmoil.
Take Obama’s example: oppose a stupid, unnecessary war early. The stated goal of this war is greed. Ignore Rubio’s sermonizing attempts to paint a layer of concern for human rights snd democracy over this mess—not even that South Florida gusano believes that. He’s driven by family grievance.
These are the lessons from vietnam, Iraq, Haiti and elswhere:
Legitimacy can’t be imported
Institutions can’t be improvised under fire
Local factions exploit power vacuums
The U.S. military is optimized for winning wars, not remaking and governing societies
Great advice!Any politician who can’t message around Venezuela is too stupid to keep their job.
We can speak strongly without legitimizing those who think all military violence is patriotism.
We can compliment the military without ignoring that the attack was illegal.
We can say it’s illegal without sounding like the teacher in the Charlie Brown cartoons.
And we can make Shapiro’s point without inviting what-about-ism on Ukraine.
Try this:
This attack has nothing to do with American security, American interests, or American values. It will not restore health insurance, cap energy costs, or make your groceries any cheaper. And it certainly has nothing to do with democracy.
This is about one thing only: stealing another country’s oil to make multinational oil corporations even richer.
It is unforgivable to put the military in harm’s way, to squander their courage and skill, and to sully their reputation by involving them in theft.
As the chaos in Venezuela grows and the regime beats the drums of war in other places and threatens to steal from other nations, remember that none of this is about you. It is all about the wealthy men who believe they can take what they want when they want it.
And remember too that none of the feet in those boots on the ground belong to Don Jr, Eric, Ivanka, or Barron Trump.
I found your message very helpful in separating our political wisdom from my own inclinations and emotions.
Just a night thought, I am not the person to think the politics through: Why does Maduro get such bad press and MBS such (relatively) good press? MBS has probably killed and imprisoned more people over the last decade. His Wahabi cadres are more intrusive than the Chavista cadres. He exports war aggressively. He does not even pretend to hold elections. But Dems say very little. I saw where he beheaded a young journalist last summer for some critical posts. But this is unknown even to Dems who follow news closely.
I share your puzzlement. We (this country) has for years picked out the weakest, brownest villain to vent our wrath. We don't pick on Ji or Putin because they have nuclear weapons. But we'll handily invade a Venezuela, Afghanistan, Libya or Iraq. We avoid fights with other industrialized, somewhat wealthy countries.
While we have to respond to serious aggression, could one of these MAGA crackbrains explain just how Venezuela, Cuba, or Columbia are a serious threat to the richest, wealthiest, most armed country in the world? For all our superior feelings to our European allies, they do seem to be able to go for years without militarily confronting some small poor country and killing a bunch of civilians. No wonder the poorer countries hate us.
Dan, my biggest concerns over Trump's action in Venezuela, aside from the sheer amorality of it, are the dangers it creates for us and the rest of the world. Aside from the fact that being an international bully always opens us to more terror attacks, if Trump can go against the UN Charter, what's to stop Putin, et al, from continuing to do likewise, and what deleterious ripple effects do more "sphere of influence" actions by other huge state actors have on us militarily and economically? And wildly, because Trump has just proven he's willing to illegally and unilaterally use force to depose a sovereign leader and attempt to take control of a state, his threats against Greenland and even Canada suddenly have sharper edges. Maybe the idea that our allies would move against us seems far-fetched, but honestly, Trump could cross a line that shakes the whole system awake. Would our allies sanction us? Strike us? This is an alarming Brave New Trumpian World. Anyway, messaging starts to feel silly in this light, but what IS the effective messaging for these concerns?
Good advice, except not tying it to Epstein .. Most Americans don't care about it? Really? Isnt the fact that Trump and his billionaire pals sexually abused hundreds of young girls , and is getting away with it, the one issue that unites most of us with many of the MAGAS? Isn't "TRUMP INVADES VENZUELA FOR OIL AND EPSTEIN DISTRACTION" a narrative that not only resonates across the political spectrum, ( especially with the more paranoid and conspiracy-minded) but has the benefit of certainly being true? Didn't MTG herself make the "OIL-BILLIONAIRE CRONIES-EPSTEIN " connection ?
Not true?
OK, Donald, prove to us that we're wrong.