The Republicans don’t want to address immigration problems; they want to endlessly campaign on them. Remember Trump ordered the Senate not to pass the bipartisan immigration bill hammered out in 2024. Trump wasn’t even president at that time. The Republicans are worse than useless because they don’t want to face up to the difficult choices necessary to govern. They have no guts.
I am thankful for many things this year, including you and The Message Box. I really appreciate the talking points on immigration, because it is, as you say Dan, a “means” issue. My fear is that once these reasonable thoughts are vocalized, my relatives will ask, “Ok smarty pants, then how do you propose we fix immigration?” My only responses to that would be: (1) make use of technology, camera-monitoring across border where crossing is not permitted as a surface-level enforcement tool (Will Hurd suggestion); (2) separate crime from immigration violations (proceeding with caution), while recognizing the potential benefits of overlap of penalties for crimes committed by illegal folks that includes deportation and inability to return (after, maybe, expedited Court involvement); and (3) revamp US law school curriculum, to provide career track to become immigration law practitioners (who become experienced Judges) - - I think law schools offer a single elective or maybe an externship or clinic. A friendly jibe at the right time may include, “Hey, can someone please pass the Due Process?” “Oh, looks like you guys don’t have any of that on the table.” Wrap all that in a bundle of, “we are a Nation of (mostly) immigrants,” recognizing that our Country is an idea, not an ethnicity, race nor religion. And, if folks subscribe - - as they should to The Message Box - - we need good people who care about improving and protecting this imperfect social experiment, in which we all share (Ds and Rs alike) a great deal of pride. Then maybe comment on how amazing it is that anyone likes cranberry sauce; I still don’t get it : )
You’re doing the Lord’s work Dan, arming us for Thanksgiving table battles.
I want to pick a nit with the immigration talking points. Feels too nuanced and gets bogged down.
For anyone who cares to consider an alternative I propose this, which includes a frame for “why:”
He proposed deporting the worst of the worst. And he also proposed deporting 20 million people. Spoiler alert: there aren’t 20 million worst of the worst. Just like every Trump business venture the product bears no resemblance to the marketing: Trump steaks, Trump vodka, Trump water. Was Trump University a real university with real degrees and accreditation? No, it was a scam.
Deportation of worst of worst is a scam. Instead your gardeners, day care workers, assisted living workers and vegetable pickers are being deported. Congratulations. That’s what you’re getting.
So many other things we can argue about at Thanksgiving! Why give Donald Trump any air time. Also - I realize my age is showing when I am the age of the maga uncle in this scenario. Have a lovely holiday, if you celebrate. I think it's a better idea to discuss how the pilgrims would have died had Indigenous people not fed them eel and other tasty morsels.
Having taught civil discourse skills for years, I can say that trying to win the "my facts are better than your facts" is exactly the recipe for the food fight you are trying it avoid. The tactics for the Immigration topic are the best of the bunch (try to acknowledge and find something to agree on before jumping in with your perspective). To make conversations with your MAGA Uncle even more effective add personal stories, find something to agree on (if you can), get curious, and use questions rather than recite facts. Here are few ways to address to the issues without jumping directly to facts:
· Wow, I hear you saying your groceries are cheaper! Mine weren't when I shopped for this dinner. I've noticed eggs leveling off a bit, but would you be open to comparing prices of coffee and turkey at your store and mine, and maybe we can also compare last year to this year and see what we find!
· I understand that you are in favor of tariffs. I am hearing a wide variety of opinions and I'm getting confused about how all the raising and lowering works. Last thing I heard was that lowering tariffs lowers prices and that seems contradictory to other things I've heard. Maybe you can help me sort that out.
· Like you, I'm for keeping illegal drugs out of the country, but I am also concerned about the bombing of the Venezuelan boats without congressional approval. I'd be interested in whether you think congress should be more involved.
· I know I was really upset when Hunter Biden used his family name and relationships for personal gain. That didn't sit right with me and I don’t think anyone should be able to mix personal business with government. From my perspective, it seems like this is still happening. Do you have ideas on how to prevent this from happening in other administrations? What exceptions for children, members of Congress, or Presidents do you think would be ok? I have some examples from recent news about both Democrats and Republicans that we can use as examples.
· For Immigration, after using the agreeing and acknowledging points, rather than jumping right into facts you can add: I heard a lot of terrible things happening in the Chicago ICE raids. What do you think is the right amount of force and what tactics are "too far"? I'm curious, what limits do you think we should have on immigration, and how might you rank all the various groups like Dreamers, asylum seekers, people with special skills?
Last tips… finding a common concern or value to agree on is easier than you think if you listen with an open mind. And, after listening to your crazy Uncle's point of view, it's always helpful to insert something like "Can I share my thoughts on this?" into the conversation before jumping to your perspective. If you don't get a "yes", all your thoughts are just going to fall on deaf ears.
My Dad would hold up a "No Politics" sign at Thanksgiving if someone would bring it up. Took a couple years, but eventually the Thanksgiving politics talk died out. Seems like a shitty (and completely unnecessary) tradition to me. :-) Good luck to those who have to deal with it.
I'm thankful I get to spend Thanksgiving with mostly like minded people (it's always a matter of degrees, isn't it?). There will be some Rams vs. Niners arguing, however.
It used to be your MAGA uncle. Now he's joined by your MAGA aunt, three cousins, your sister in law and her best friend from high school, and 7-year-old evil Bob. It's time to say, hey how about those Rams!
The Republicans don’t want to address immigration problems; they want to endlessly campaign on them. Remember Trump ordered the Senate not to pass the bipartisan immigration bill hammered out in 2024. Trump wasn’t even president at that time. The Republicans are worse than useless because they don’t want to face up to the difficult choices necessary to govern. They have no guts.
I am thankful for many things this year, including you and The Message Box. I really appreciate the talking points on immigration, because it is, as you say Dan, a “means” issue. My fear is that once these reasonable thoughts are vocalized, my relatives will ask, “Ok smarty pants, then how do you propose we fix immigration?” My only responses to that would be: (1) make use of technology, camera-monitoring across border where crossing is not permitted as a surface-level enforcement tool (Will Hurd suggestion); (2) separate crime from immigration violations (proceeding with caution), while recognizing the potential benefits of overlap of penalties for crimes committed by illegal folks that includes deportation and inability to return (after, maybe, expedited Court involvement); and (3) revamp US law school curriculum, to provide career track to become immigration law practitioners (who become experienced Judges) - - I think law schools offer a single elective or maybe an externship or clinic. A friendly jibe at the right time may include, “Hey, can someone please pass the Due Process?” “Oh, looks like you guys don’t have any of that on the table.” Wrap all that in a bundle of, “we are a Nation of (mostly) immigrants,” recognizing that our Country is an idea, not an ethnicity, race nor religion. And, if folks subscribe - - as they should to The Message Box - - we need good people who care about improving and protecting this imperfect social experiment, in which we all share (Ds and Rs alike) a great deal of pride. Then maybe comment on how amazing it is that anyone likes cranberry sauce; I still don’t get it : )
You’re doing the Lord’s work Dan, arming us for Thanksgiving table battles.
I want to pick a nit with the immigration talking points. Feels too nuanced and gets bogged down.
For anyone who cares to consider an alternative I propose this, which includes a frame for “why:”
He proposed deporting the worst of the worst. And he also proposed deporting 20 million people. Spoiler alert: there aren’t 20 million worst of the worst. Just like every Trump business venture the product bears no resemblance to the marketing: Trump steaks, Trump vodka, Trump water. Was Trump University a real university with real degrees and accreditation? No, it was a scam.
Deportation of worst of worst is a scam. Instead your gardeners, day care workers, assisted living workers and vegetable pickers are being deported. Congratulations. That’s what you’re getting.
The best family advice I have heard for Thanksgiving: you can either drink OR talk politics. Not both.
So many other things we can argue about at Thanksgiving! Why give Donald Trump any air time. Also - I realize my age is showing when I am the age of the maga uncle in this scenario. Have a lovely holiday, if you celebrate. I think it's a better idea to discuss how the pilgrims would have died had Indigenous people not fed them eel and other tasty morsels.
Happy Thanksgiving Dan! Ever thought on crossing the river? I would vote for you (if I could!)
Having taught civil discourse skills for years, I can say that trying to win the "my facts are better than your facts" is exactly the recipe for the food fight you are trying it avoid. The tactics for the Immigration topic are the best of the bunch (try to acknowledge and find something to agree on before jumping in with your perspective). To make conversations with your MAGA Uncle even more effective add personal stories, find something to agree on (if you can), get curious, and use questions rather than recite facts. Here are few ways to address to the issues without jumping directly to facts:
· Wow, I hear you saying your groceries are cheaper! Mine weren't when I shopped for this dinner. I've noticed eggs leveling off a bit, but would you be open to comparing prices of coffee and turkey at your store and mine, and maybe we can also compare last year to this year and see what we find!
· I understand that you are in favor of tariffs. I am hearing a wide variety of opinions and I'm getting confused about how all the raising and lowering works. Last thing I heard was that lowering tariffs lowers prices and that seems contradictory to other things I've heard. Maybe you can help me sort that out.
· Like you, I'm for keeping illegal drugs out of the country, but I am also concerned about the bombing of the Venezuelan boats without congressional approval. I'd be interested in whether you think congress should be more involved.
· I know I was really upset when Hunter Biden used his family name and relationships for personal gain. That didn't sit right with me and I don’t think anyone should be able to mix personal business with government. From my perspective, it seems like this is still happening. Do you have ideas on how to prevent this from happening in other administrations? What exceptions for children, members of Congress, or Presidents do you think would be ok? I have some examples from recent news about both Democrats and Republicans that we can use as examples.
· For Immigration, after using the agreeing and acknowledging points, rather than jumping right into facts you can add: I heard a lot of terrible things happening in the Chicago ICE raids. What do you think is the right amount of force and what tactics are "too far"? I'm curious, what limits do you think we should have on immigration, and how might you rank all the various groups like Dreamers, asylum seekers, people with special skills?
Last tips… finding a common concern or value to agree on is easier than you think if you listen with an open mind. And, after listening to your crazy Uncle's point of view, it's always helpful to insert something like "Can I share my thoughts on this?" into the conversation before jumping to your perspective. If you don't get a "yes", all your thoughts are just going to fall on deaf ears.
This is outstanding. It is how we should always present because it is concise, clear and fact. Thanks for doing it. You may save lives.
My Dad would hold up a "No Politics" sign at Thanksgiving if someone would bring it up. Took a couple years, but eventually the Thanksgiving politics talk died out. Seems like a shitty (and completely unnecessary) tradition to me. :-) Good luck to those who have to deal with it.
I'm going to be thankful that there is a huge ocean preventing me from joining all my Maga-adjacent Trump-loving relatives for dinner.
Don’t go?
I'm thankful I get to spend Thanksgiving with mostly like minded people (it's always a matter of degrees, isn't it?). There will be some Rams vs. Niners arguing, however.
It used to be your MAGA uncle. Now he's joined by your MAGA aunt, three cousins, your sister in law and her best friend from high school, and 7-year-old evil Bob. It's time to say, hey how about those Rams!
Or...how 'bout those Lions lol ;).
As a 49ers fan I don't want to discuss the Rams either! :-) Stafford is having a helluva year!
7-year old Evil Bob sounds really scary!