Dan - Unfortunately, not everything is about politics. TikTok does represent a significant danger to the United States and the right decision, if not the decision most politically palatable, is to ban the app. The data that TikTok collects and the messaging that its algorithms can serve to its user base can clearly be used by a hostile government to target, track, and surveil individual users or to spread misinformation, fan dissension, and generally sow chaos. It should come as no surprise to anyone that the CCP has banned TikTok in all of China (including Hong Kong & Macau). TikTok is a Chinese company and is entirely beholden to the CCP. TikTok can promise that they will protect the United States and western users from China's predations, but that promise will only be honored in the absence of Chinese demands to turn the app into a tool of the Chinese state. Neither TikTok nor Bytedance are able to defy the Chinese state. The app must be sold or banned in the US. There is no other option.
Insofar as the fear mongering around the polls about TikTok bans, I would say that the answer isn't to face the far harsher blowback from GOP attacks of being "soft on China" but to get the ban out of the way sooner rather than later. This polling data is a great example of what happens when a reality is pitted against a hypothetical in a poll question. Obviously the "reality" gets a bump. If you are a TikTok user right now, then you probably are going to tend to say that, all else being equal, you would like to continue using the app. Were the app banned, particularly were the messaging around the reason for banning the app well designed, I suspect that the 'backlash' to the ban would be small and short lived. I live in Hong Kong and the app was very popular when it was banned here. There was a bit of grumbling, but after about a month people had forgotten about it and moved on to other apps. If you are genuinely worried about the blowback at the hustings to a ban then rip the bandaid off well ahead of the election. Ultimately, though, this hyperventilating about the risk to the Democratic Party is just noise being whipped up by TikTok's newest lobbying shop: SKDK.
To be clear, I am not saying that the administration should not first work to ensure that the RESTRICT Act becomes law. Quick passage of a bipartisan law governing how the administration approaches not just TikTok but ALL social media apps is the ideal outcome.
So basically what every interwebz company has been doing forever? You sound like a true out of touch Boomer with this comment. Ahhhh, nooo, the interwebz with the tubes and wires! Get it out!
I am not going to respond to the ad hominem attack.
As to your comment that there is no 'proof' that Bytedance and/or TikTok are sending data or in any other way operating at the behest of the CCP, I am not sure what evidence you expect or would accept. Certainly neither Bytedance nor TikTok are giving the kind of access to their systems that would allow for an intensive and extensive forensic audit. I would argue, however, that we have more than enough specific knowledge about the CCP and its relationship to its domestic companies to draw some conclusions. All of these companies have CCP representation in the C-Suite and more and more of the Chinese tech universe have been forced to give the CCP 'golden shares'. When push comes to shove, the CCP can mandate that certain actions are taken. We also do have some pretty good anecdotal evidence that during Speaker Pelosi's visit to Taiwan, there was manipulation of the algorithms designed to serve posts to western users that were pro-China, anti-Taiwan, and in many cases anti-Pelosi. I can attest to this manipulation myself.
And don't get me wrong, I am not in the camp that we should only ban TikTok and 'bang! job done'. I believe that we should ban or have a process for banning any social media app owned by or effectively controlled by a hostile country that surveils its users and/or uses algorithmic curation to drive user engagement. These apps can and will absolutely be weaponized against us.
And, actually, I will respond to the ad hominem attack. While I am not old enough to be a boomer, I am old enough to have spent more than a quarter century living and working in China. Studying China and the CCP has been integral to that work. I am confident in my analysis.
Banning from government and encrypted devices that keep sensitive information, probably a good idea. But for a cleantok mom, the activist keeping information about abortion, or racist behavior in their town, one of the 5 million small business owners on the 🕰️...why are we banning it? Just because it’s not owned by an American company? And because Meta lobbyists have paid $20M to politicians for the hysteria?
I do not believe that it is hysteria. As I note above, what we know about the CCP and the CCP's relationship to domestic Chinese companies, particularly domestic tech companies, make it reasonable to conclude that the CCP can and will weaponize Bytedance/TikTok against the United States. As to the companies and individuals with existing presences on TikTok, there are ample venues available to them to keep information about abortion access, monitor racist behaviors, or tout their wares on social media apps that aren't controlled by entities hostile to the continued existence of the United States.
I would also note that Meta isn't the only company paying lobbyists to carry their water on the Hill or in the White House. TikTok has an extensive legislative affairs operation and has undertaken a significant lobbying effort as well. As I mentioned in my original post, TikTok recently engaged SKDK to lobby on their behalf; hardly buying influence on the cheap with that hire. All of which said, how much money a company spends on lobbying doesn't change the underlying facts of the issue they are paying lobbyists to address for them. Though it does beg the question of why we aren't doing more to keep big money out of politics and legislation.
ByteDance owns TikTok. 🤦🏻♀️ Like Meta owns Facebook. Currently there’s no proof data are being sent to China. I’d argue we have more data that Meta manipulated information for political means than ByteDance. We KNOW about Cambridge Analytica.
You bring up good points. There's no proof, you are correct about that. Also, there is no way to prove transfer of data, one way or another. It can be moved physically (with multi-terabyte media) or electronically. Certainly, neither ByteDance nor China would admit it.
The difference for me -- we found out about Meta and Cambridge Analytica, though it is true we didn't do much about it. We might never find out about Byte Dance transferring data. And it would be transferring data to a nation that routinely kills or imprisons its own citizens by the millions, is building a Navy to compete with ours, who illegally claims vast portions of the Pacific Ocean's navigable waters and considers us a deadly adversary.
For me that is a potential danger, though I realize others consider that danger seems hysterical or overblown.
Okay, so let’s bring down the hysteria for a moment.
We are banning the app from government devices. Good idea. Probably also a good idea to not allow them on encrypted or other sensitive devices. But for the mom on #cleantok, or the activist using it to get the word out about abortion care or a protest or a racist getting his/her comeuppance...what is the inherent and terrible danger we are discussing? Sure, we don’t want a foreign government spying on us, but this is literally just a new way of doing what governments have done since the dawn of time.
If the Chinese government sent a questionnaire to millions of ordinary Americans asking for age, media preferences, demographic information, political leanings, topics of civic interest (if any), preferences on a range of cultural or other issues, opinions on race, sexual orientation, educational level, job, etc., would you think that would be a good idea? Those are the data points they can possibly either learn directly or pretty closely infer from how one uses Tik Tok.
If some mid-level marketing doofus can figure out from the same source whether you would be interested in a certain type of product (and pretty accurately), then that same process can be used for less desirable conclusions.
As I said in a previous post, Tik Tok is a far better and more useful platform than any others for many productive uses in the U.S. And you make some good points.
We have a difference of honest opinion which we probably won't resolve.
Not true, even if you are on a VPN pretending to log in from another country. A federal ban would make Tik Tok inaccessible. While there might be legal wrangling before you get there, a law banning it would necessarily remove it from all accessible App Stores and end connectivity. Thus, removing it or disabling it on your phone.
Sure. I get that. I use VPN's and other devices to evade restrictions all the time. That said, just because a ban would not be 100% effective, the friction of a ban (necessitating a VPN, not available in US app stores, difficulty upgrading, etc) would significantly reduce the potential for harm.
I am generally skeptical of arguments that we shouldn't undertake any regulation that we can't enforce perfectly. Throwing up our hands and saying "well, people will just break the law or cheat" as an argument against new regulation or new laws doesn't seem like a serious argument. It is, in fact, exactly the kind of bad faith argument that the GOP uses all the time to avoid doing things like enacting common sense gun safety laws or levying taxes on the wealthy.
Probably for similar reasons, China has banned Twitter, and Facebook left China purportedly over control and censorship issues (if the report I read about Facebook’s exit was correct).
Distressing as it is for me to realize our Dem politics are heavily influenced by the pique of younger Millennials and Gen Z adults threatened with losing a favorite toy, it seems the best way out is to force a sale to a U. S. corporation.
Seriously, though, very smart people are using Tik Tok to deliver real economic benefit as well as entertainment. The list of brands essentially started on the platform, as well as the companies with stellar marketing campaigns is long and varied. In that way the platform is unique.
Facebook has utility for businesses small and large, but it in no way lends itself to viral marketing. And can anyone imagine a marketing campaign on Twitter? It would be like Bruce Springsteen trying his own version of Jimmy Buffett’s Margaritaville, now a several billion dollar business. What would he call it? Rustagrittyville? I’m a Bruce fan, but he can be a bit of a pessimist.
Of course we have misused information. And there are plenty of apps in Google Play and the App Store developed and owned by companies in other countries. For me, though, there's a difference with an exceedingly popular app owned by a Chinese company in an environment where even the CEO of that company admits the government, a ruthless dictatorship, can legally demand it turn over all of its data at any time. He just says that that hasn't happened (and the Chines government says they won't do that). For many people, this is too thin a protection
In an interview with Bloomberg News earlier this month , Commerce Secretary Gina Raimondo worried a TikTok ban would cause Democrats to “literally lose every voter under 35, forever.”
I will admit that I have a hard time understanding the dangers surrounding Tiktok, since the only things I've seen are dance videos, makeup tutorials and cooking lessons. That said, if there is a compelling reason for a ban, the government and media REALLY need to convey that reason in an easy to understand way for the many millions of users that will lose access to the platform.
Beyond the technical discussion, I am wondering how central to young voters this issue would be in 2024 in comparison to loss of fundamental freedoms of speech, gender diversity, reproduction— not to mention the environment. All these and much more are under threat from all Republicans
As a fossil myself, I would point out this is an app, not a website. Apps can be banned (and have been effectively banned by Apple and Google taking them out of their stores, which cuts off availability and connectivity) for all sorts of reasons. The most common is mining user information surreptitiously, or having a hidden communications channel that activates without the user's knowledge.
Dear Dan: I'm pushing 72. I don't have kids or grandkids. However, as a computer-dependent freelance editor, I've been computer-dependent since 1985 and online since 1994 (remember old GEnie?). So this assumption that all boomers are as technologically ignorant as some old guys in Congress is wrong, insulting, and ageist as hell. Note that those old guys in Congress are stupid about many other things as well. Thank you.
Because it is now buried in a continue thread, I think this should be part of the discussion.
Okay, so let’s bring down the hysteria for a moment.
We are banning the app from government devices. Good idea. Probably also a good idea to not allow them on encrypted or other sensitive devices. But for the mom on #cleantok, or the activist using it to get the word out about abortion care or a protest or a racist getting his/her comeuppance...what is the inherent and terrible danger we are discussing? Sure, we don’t want a foreign government spying on us, but this is literally just a new way of doing what governments have done since the dawn of time.
Dan - Unfortunately, not everything is about politics. TikTok does represent a significant danger to the United States and the right decision, if not the decision most politically palatable, is to ban the app. The data that TikTok collects and the messaging that its algorithms can serve to its user base can clearly be used by a hostile government to target, track, and surveil individual users or to spread misinformation, fan dissension, and generally sow chaos. It should come as no surprise to anyone that the CCP has banned TikTok in all of China (including Hong Kong & Macau). TikTok is a Chinese company and is entirely beholden to the CCP. TikTok can promise that they will protect the United States and western users from China's predations, but that promise will only be honored in the absence of Chinese demands to turn the app into a tool of the Chinese state. Neither TikTok nor Bytedance are able to defy the Chinese state. The app must be sold or banned in the US. There is no other option.
Insofar as the fear mongering around the polls about TikTok bans, I would say that the answer isn't to face the far harsher blowback from GOP attacks of being "soft on China" but to get the ban out of the way sooner rather than later. This polling data is a great example of what happens when a reality is pitted against a hypothetical in a poll question. Obviously the "reality" gets a bump. If you are a TikTok user right now, then you probably are going to tend to say that, all else being equal, you would like to continue using the app. Were the app banned, particularly were the messaging around the reason for banning the app well designed, I suspect that the 'backlash' to the ban would be small and short lived. I live in Hong Kong and the app was very popular when it was banned here. There was a bit of grumbling, but after about a month people had forgotten about it and moved on to other apps. If you are genuinely worried about the blowback at the hustings to a ban then rip the bandaid off well ahead of the election. Ultimately, though, this hyperventilating about the risk to the Democratic Party is just noise being whipped up by TikTok's newest lobbying shop: SKDK.
To be clear, I am not saying that the administration should not first work to ensure that the RESTRICT Act becomes law. Quick passage of a bipartisan law governing how the administration approaches not just TikTok but ALL social media apps is the ideal outcome.
So basically what every interwebz company has been doing forever? You sound like a true out of touch Boomer with this comment. Ahhhh, nooo, the interwebz with the tubes and wires! Get it out!
I am not going to respond to the ad hominem attack.
As to your comment that there is no 'proof' that Bytedance and/or TikTok are sending data or in any other way operating at the behest of the CCP, I am not sure what evidence you expect or would accept. Certainly neither Bytedance nor TikTok are giving the kind of access to their systems that would allow for an intensive and extensive forensic audit. I would argue, however, that we have more than enough specific knowledge about the CCP and its relationship to its domestic companies to draw some conclusions. All of these companies have CCP representation in the C-Suite and more and more of the Chinese tech universe have been forced to give the CCP 'golden shares'. When push comes to shove, the CCP can mandate that certain actions are taken. We also do have some pretty good anecdotal evidence that during Speaker Pelosi's visit to Taiwan, there was manipulation of the algorithms designed to serve posts to western users that were pro-China, anti-Taiwan, and in many cases anti-Pelosi. I can attest to this manipulation myself.
And don't get me wrong, I am not in the camp that we should only ban TikTok and 'bang! job done'. I believe that we should ban or have a process for banning any social media app owned by or effectively controlled by a hostile country that surveils its users and/or uses algorithmic curation to drive user engagement. These apps can and will absolutely be weaponized against us.
And, actually, I will respond to the ad hominem attack. While I am not old enough to be a boomer, I am old enough to have spent more than a quarter century living and working in China. Studying China and the CCP has been integral to that work. I am confident in my analysis.
Again...I posted below but will ask you directly.
Banning from government and encrypted devices that keep sensitive information, probably a good idea. But for a cleantok mom, the activist keeping information about abortion, or racist behavior in their town, one of the 5 million small business owners on the 🕰️...why are we banning it? Just because it’s not owned by an American company? And because Meta lobbyists have paid $20M to politicians for the hysteria?
I do not believe that it is hysteria. As I note above, what we know about the CCP and the CCP's relationship to domestic Chinese companies, particularly domestic tech companies, make it reasonable to conclude that the CCP can and will weaponize Bytedance/TikTok against the United States. As to the companies and individuals with existing presences on TikTok, there are ample venues available to them to keep information about abortion access, monitor racist behaviors, or tout their wares on social media apps that aren't controlled by entities hostile to the continued existence of the United States.
I would also note that Meta isn't the only company paying lobbyists to carry their water on the Hill or in the White House. TikTok has an extensive legislative affairs operation and has undertaken a significant lobbying effort as well. As I mentioned in my original post, TikTok recently engaged SKDK to lobby on their behalf; hardly buying influence on the cheap with that hire. All of which said, how much money a company spends on lobbying doesn't change the underlying facts of the issue they are paying lobbyists to address for them. Though it does beg the question of why we aren't doing more to keep big money out of politics and legislation.
If Tik Tok is sending personal data on its users to a dictatorship, that is very different from anything Facebook, or Twitter is doing.
ByteDance owns TikTok. 🤦🏻♀️ Like Meta owns Facebook. Currently there’s no proof data are being sent to China. I’d argue we have more data that Meta manipulated information for political means than ByteDance. We KNOW about Cambridge Analytica.
You bring up good points. There's no proof, you are correct about that. Also, there is no way to prove transfer of data, one way or another. It can be moved physically (with multi-terabyte media) or electronically. Certainly, neither ByteDance nor China would admit it.
The difference for me -- we found out about Meta and Cambridge Analytica, though it is true we didn't do much about it. We might never find out about Byte Dance transferring data. And it would be transferring data to a nation that routinely kills or imprisons its own citizens by the millions, is building a Navy to compete with ours, who illegally claims vast portions of the Pacific Ocean's navigable waters and considers us a deadly adversary.
For me that is a potential danger, though I realize others consider that danger seems hysterical or overblown.
Okay, so let’s bring down the hysteria for a moment.
We are banning the app from government devices. Good idea. Probably also a good idea to not allow them on encrypted or other sensitive devices. But for the mom on #cleantok, or the activist using it to get the word out about abortion care or a protest or a racist getting his/her comeuppance...what is the inherent and terrible danger we are discussing? Sure, we don’t want a foreign government spying on us, but this is literally just a new way of doing what governments have done since the dawn of time.
If the Chinese government sent a questionnaire to millions of ordinary Americans asking for age, media preferences, demographic information, political leanings, topics of civic interest (if any), preferences on a range of cultural or other issues, opinions on race, sexual orientation, educational level, job, etc., would you think that would be a good idea? Those are the data points they can possibly either learn directly or pretty closely infer from how one uses Tik Tok.
If some mid-level marketing doofus can figure out from the same source whether you would be interested in a certain type of product (and pretty accurately), then that same process can be used for less desirable conclusions.
As I said in a previous post, Tik Tok is a far better and more useful platform than any others for many productive uses in the U.S. And you make some good points.
We have a difference of honest opinion which we probably won't resolve.
Um have you met the internet? You can't ban an app, any kid with half a brain can get around a ban.
Not true, even if you are on a VPN pretending to log in from another country. A federal ban would make Tik Tok inaccessible. While there might be legal wrangling before you get there, a law banning it would necessarily remove it from all accessible App Stores and end connectivity. Thus, removing it or disabling it on your phone.
Sure. I get that. I use VPN's and other devices to evade restrictions all the time. That said, just because a ban would not be 100% effective, the friction of a ban (necessitating a VPN, not available in US app stores, difficulty upgrading, etc) would significantly reduce the potential for harm.
I am generally skeptical of arguments that we shouldn't undertake any regulation that we can't enforce perfectly. Throwing up our hands and saying "well, people will just break the law or cheat" as an argument against new regulation or new laws doesn't seem like a serious argument. It is, in fact, exactly the kind of bad faith argument that the GOP uses all the time to avoid doing things like enacting common sense gun safety laws or levying taxes on the wealthy.
Probably for similar reasons, China has banned Twitter, and Facebook left China purportedly over control and censorship issues (if the report I read about Facebook’s exit was correct).
Distressing as it is for me to realize our Dem politics are heavily influenced by the pique of younger Millennials and Gen Z adults threatened with losing a favorite toy, it seems the best way out is to force a sale to a U. S. corporation.
Seriously, though, very smart people are using Tik Tok to deliver real economic benefit as well as entertainment. The list of brands essentially started on the platform, as well as the companies with stellar marketing campaigns is long and varied. In that way the platform is unique.
Facebook has utility for businesses small and large, but it in no way lends itself to viral marketing. And can anyone imagine a marketing campaign on Twitter? It would be like Bruce Springsteen trying his own version of Jimmy Buffett’s Margaritaville, now a several billion dollar business. What would he call it? Rustagrittyville? I’m a Bruce fan, but he can be a bit of a pessimist.
Why does it have to be that the US controls all of the internet tools? Because we have never used information for ill?
Of course we have misused information. And there are plenty of apps in Google Play and the App Store developed and owned by companies in other countries. For me, though, there's a difference with an exceedingly popular app owned by a Chinese company in an environment where even the CEO of that company admits the government, a ruthless dictatorship, can legally demand it turn over all of its data at any time. He just says that that hasn't happened (and the Chines government says they won't do that). For many people, this is too thin a protection
In an interview with Bloomberg News earlier this month , Commerce Secretary Gina Raimondo worried a TikTok ban would cause Democrats to “literally lose every voter under 35, forever.”
Great point on implementation! Section 13 of the RESTRICT Act provides the Biden team a small cop out if we get to “the third way”.
I will admit that I have a hard time understanding the dangers surrounding Tiktok, since the only things I've seen are dance videos, makeup tutorials and cooking lessons. That said, if there is a compelling reason for a ban, the government and media REALLY need to convey that reason in an easy to understand way for the many millions of users that will lose access to the platform.
Beyond the technical discussion, I am wondering how central to young voters this issue would be in 2024 in comparison to loss of fundamental freedoms of speech, gender diversity, reproduction— not to mention the environment. All these and much more are under threat from all Republicans
Have any of these fossils ever met the internet? You can't ban a website like burning books or telling lies about elections...
As a fossil myself, I would point out this is an app, not a website. Apps can be banned (and have been effectively banned by Apple and Google taking them out of their stores, which cuts off availability and connectivity) for all sorts of reasons. The most common is mining user information surreptitiously, or having a hidden communications channel that activates without the user's knowledge.
Dear Dan: I'm pushing 72. I don't have kids or grandkids. However, as a computer-dependent freelance editor, I've been computer-dependent since 1985 and online since 1994 (remember old GEnie?). So this assumption that all boomers are as technologically ignorant as some old guys in Congress is wrong, insulting, and ageist as hell. Note that those old guys in Congress are stupid about many other things as well. Thank you.
Also just watched this recap (on TikTok!! from underthedesknews):
https://www.tiktok.com/t/ZTRvSKUsh/
I didn’t realize there were 5 million small business owners on the 🕰️. Worth a watch.
Because it is now buried in a continue thread, I think this should be part of the discussion.
Okay, so let’s bring down the hysteria for a moment.
We are banning the app from government devices. Good idea. Probably also a good idea to not allow them on encrypted or other sensitive devices. But for the mom on #cleantok, or the activist using it to get the word out about abortion care or a protest or a racist getting his/her comeuppance...what is the inherent and terrible danger we are discussing? Sure, we don’t want a foreign government spying on us, but this is literally just a new way of doing what governments have done since the dawn of time.